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Suicide?

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Suicide?

Postby DANgerous on Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:15 am

If you are a Christian and you commit suicide will you go to heaven?

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Postby brian on Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:21 am

whew...good one. You're gonna make me research for that one. TTYL.



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Postby DANgerous on Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:39 am

brian wrote:whew...good one. You're gonna make me research for that one. TTYL.


Well, research away. [smilie=5bouncy.gif] I'd like to see some well thought out answers to this one. I'm not gonna reply untill I do a little research myself.

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Postby DJ Real on Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:46 am

Okay. I have plenty of time, and since I've been up longer than what I should be, I've been researching this topic for about the last hour. So keeping it with scripture that this is what I've found.

Starting with biblical instances where people have committed suicide.
*Judges 16:29-30: And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left. And Samson said; let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

*1 Sam 31:4-5: 4 Then said Saul unto his armor bearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armor bearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armor bearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.

*2 Sam 17:23: And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his *CENSORED*, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulcher of his father.

*I King 16:18-19: And it came to pass, when Zimri saw that the city was taken, that he went into the palace of the king's house, and burnt the king's house over him with fire, and died. For his sins which he sinned in doing evil in the sight of the LORD, in walking in the way of Jeroboam, and in his sin which he did, to make Israel to sin.

Samson, Saul and his armor bearer, Ahithophel, Zimri and Judas were all men who did not take heed of following God with all their heart. This led them to an impasse where death was preferable to them. The Bible however, doesn?t mention if they are saved or not. Nowhere in my Bible did I read that if someone committed suicide were they to be doomed forever. There are other Biblical instances where someone considered or was tempted to commit suicide, but did not because God offered them a way out. He gave them free will. Here they are:

*Matt 4:5-7: Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, And said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, it is written again, Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
Jesus was tempted to commit suicide, under the pretense that God would save His life. Jesus immediately saw the false-ness of that claim.

*Num 11:14-16: I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me. And if thou deal thus with me, kill me, I pray thee, out of hand, if I have found favor in thy sight; and let me not see my wretchedness. And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou know to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
Moses had a big burden of caring for all the Israelites. He was longing for death. However, God gave him a solution to his problem that worked, if only you trust yourself in God?s arms.

*1 King 19:4-5: But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers. And as he lay and slept under a juniper tree, behold, then an angel touched him, and said unto him, arise and eat.

*Paul points out in 1 Cor. 6:19-20: Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Should we destroy God?s temple? We should trust in the power of God to help us find a solution. This goes with Exodus 20:13: Thou shall not kill. God cares for us. If we trust Him, and unload our burdens to Him, He will help us. He has the solution to all of our problems. Matt 11:28: Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Personally if the situation were one based on mental instability and mental retardation then I do not believe that God would judge them the same. We understand the difference between life and death, and what is right and what is wrong. God will judge accordingly, and that?s my piece on this.



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Postby SinistreMinistre on Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:44 pm

I like how St. Augustine puts it in his book (which is way too long i might add) 'City of God'. Basically he uses the 'thou shalt not murder' commandment for his explanation. He then states that suicide is murder of the self and murder none the less. [smilie=qpepsi.gif]



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Postby EVO-8-Trskit on Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:00 pm

Wow, DJ Real...good job on the look up, I never would have thought there was so much...thanks. Thanks sinister, that is the most common reference and explaination for why someone will lose their salvation through it. What my belief states is that it basically breaks down to the fact that murder is a major sin and one that takes someone out of a state of grace in order to recieve salvation. Since you die from sucide then you have no ability to repent, or recover that grace and therefore you lose your salvation. Just giving the break down I know. Thanks everyone for your idea's and info.



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Postby brian on Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:58 pm

EVO-8-Trskit wrote:that is the most common reference and explaination for why someone will lose their salvation through it. What my belief states is that it basically breaks down to the fact that murder is a major sin and one that takes someone out of a state of grace in order to recieve salvation. Since you die from sucide then you have no ability to repent, or recover that grace and therefore you lose your salvation.


now on the Catholic side, wouldn't purgatory come into play there?



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Postby EVO-8-Trskit on Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:52 am

Not with this subject. This is a mortal sin in which they would not have the chance to go to purgatory, do not pass go do not collect $200. As I said it's all about the grace and you are not in a state of grace after a mortal (really bad) sin and therefore don't get the chance to be pruified in purgatory and get into heaven.



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Postby brian on Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:13 am

In the Bible though, the only unforgiveable sin is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Jesus outlines it in Matt. 12:22-32

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


I'm not encouraging or promoting it or anything, but I feel that Jesus bore all a person's sins, including suicide. If Jesus bore that person's sins on the cross 2000 years ago, and if suicide was not covered, then the person was never saved in the first place and the one sin of suicide is able to undo the entire work of the cross of Christ. This cannot be. Jesus either saves completely or he does not.



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Postby SympleTruth316 on Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:22 am

doesnt it say we must repent of our sins? If one commits suicide, which I feel is murder, which I feel is one of the 10 commandments, which I believe Jesus says will exclude you from heaven............hold on I just confused myself........................ok, how can one ask for forgiveness if one is dead?



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Postby brian on Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:26 am

onehot2ndgen wrote:doesnt it say we must repent of our sins? If one commits suicide, which I feel is murder, which I feel is one of the 10 commandments, which I believe Jesus says will exclude you from heaven............hold on I just confused myself........................ok, how can one ask for forgiveness if one is dead?


with that thinking, you're saying that you have to repent for every sin, or else you won't be forgiven. That's a salvation by works arguement.

what about this scenario then. You're driving down the road and some guy cuts you off. You've had a bad day and you yell something derogatory...sin, right? 30 seconds later you hit a patch of ice, lose control, hit a light pole and die! Do you go to hell cause you didn't repent for that derogatory outburst?

No, of course not. Jesus' sacrifice atoned for every sin you would ever commit. I know it's different for Catholics James, so let's not start that whole debate though.



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Postby EVO-8-Trskit on Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:35 am

I'm not getting into this discussion again Brain...it's over. PLease let it rest this time and not start up another string of topics directed at this subject. We finally have some peace and quiet in here again. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. Not trying to be harsh, but come on now.



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Postby brian on Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:41 am

EVO-8-Trskit wrote:I'm not getting into this discussion again Brain...it's over. PLease let it rest this time and not start up another string of topics directed at this subject. We finally have some peace and quiet in here again. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. Not trying to be harsh, but come on now.


that's what I just said...read my last line in the post above yours. I'm not trying to start a debate...at all



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Postby EVO-8-Trskit on Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:44 am

Yeah, I was in the middle of writing the post before your stated that. Glad you think the same thing.



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Postby DANgerous on Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:25 am

brian wrote:In the Bible though, the only unforgiveable sin is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Jesus outlines it in Matt. 12:22-32

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


I'm not encouraging or promoting it or anything, but I feel that Jesus bore all a person's sins, including suicide. If Jesus bore that person's sins on the cross 2000 years ago, and if suicide was not covered, then the person was never saved in the first place and the one sin of suicide is able to undo the entire work of the cross of Christ. This cannot be. Jesus either saves completely or he does not.


I have to agree with this. All sins are equal in God's eyes...except for this one blasphemy.

So all sins being equal except blasphemy.

Suicide would equal murder...a sin.

Murder is not an unforgiveable sin.

NOBODY will leave this earth free of sin.

The Bible clearly states:

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

We are sinners and that is the reason Jesus died for us.

If you think you are getting into heaven only because you were able to repent of your last sin here on earth, then you got another thing commin'. If you could really miss out on heaven because of not repenting for one sin before you died...you might as well just sit in a locked room and ask forgiveness like every 5 seconds just in case you die, because nobody knows when their time will be up. If you could really miss out on heaven like that, then wouldn't every Christian be terrified whenever they sin? Remember, you never know when you are gonna die.

So if you sin by committing suicide or by flippin' some guy off and then you died.

Either sin would be equal in God's eyes. Do you think that God would keep you out of heaven for flippin' some dude off right before you died and you didn't have time to repent for it? I don't think so and since both of these sins are equal in God's eyes, why would he keep you out of heaven for committing suicide and not being able to repent for it?

The bottom line I think is that Jesus covers all sin...including suicide. Nobody knows when their time will be, so isn't it nice to know that if you do have a few sins that you didn't repent for when you die, Jesus will be able to cover those too. Jesus finished it. It's done. As long as you have accepted him into your heart and confessed that you are a sinner, he has covered your sins. From the time you accepted him...untill the time you die. So take up your cross and walk with him...Jesus has got you covered on your sins.

That's what I think. Anybody care to comment. Feel free to voice your opinion.

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